romney has said that he wants to use the debates as a clarifying moment. he thinks the democrats have waged an inaccurate campaign. he has said he expects obama to tell more untruths on the debate stage but he thinks there is a real opportunity for him. there is congratulations from the romney campaign, what a great debater obama is and in some ways they are mediocre debaters. there have been some mistakes. obama is likeable enough moment with hillary clinton. gwen: think of the debates you have covered, chuck -- >> because i'm old. [laughter] gwen: which once would you say have made a difference in the outcome? >> well, i'm not actually this old -- [laughter] >> clearly when gerald ford said that the poland not under soviet domination that was one of his memorable type of gaffes and the big putdown from lloyd bentsten and dan quayle. they don't have a moment where they say that guy is clearly better than the other guy. they are both well prepared. these are smart people. and not likely to make a mistake. romney's great hope is he can use these debates to